1961 vespa- t4 or GL? help!

[trevb111]

hi

IN ENGLISH-

ive just brought a scooter that we think was made in augsburg. we thought it was a T4 because it has rounded side cowls (l side cowl has a door) and rounded headlamp. i brought it because it has 10" wheels as standard which i wanted.

but the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) on the body chassis doesnt match.. but it does match a 1961 GL (VGLA1T032201).

the vespa has another plate that has a different VIN number (VGLA1T313723) which is the number for a 1961 T4.

(here are the german T4 vin nos-

150 T/4 (Augsburg)1959 - 1961 VGLA1T 300001 bis 314387 Typ 202

1962 - VGLA1T 314388 bis 315388

and here are the gl vin nos-

Vespa 150 Grand Lusso (GL)

150 Grand Lusso 1957 - 1958 VGL1T 01001 - 016610 -

150 Grand Lusso 1959 - 1961 VGLA1T 1001 bis 035267 -

150 Grand Lusso 1961 - 1962 VGLB1T 035268 bis 049294

150 Grand Lusso 1962 - 1965 VLA1T 01001 bis 080855)

i am confused!! is this vespa italian gl or german T4 or both?

IN GERMAN- bad sorry!!

Hallo

Ive hat nur einen Motorroller gebracht, den wir denken, wurde gemacht in augsburg. wir haben gedacht, dass es war ein T4 weil es hat abgerundet seiten cowls (l seiten cowl eine Tür) hat, und haben Scheinwerfer. ich es abgerundet habe gebracht, weil es 10" Räder als normal hat, den ich gewollt habe.

Aber die Fahrzeugidentifikationzahl (VIN) auf dem Körperchassis doesnt Gegenstück.. aber es passt der ein GL von 1961 (VGLA1T032201) an.

Der vespa hat eine andere Platte, die einen verschiedenen VIN Zahl (VGLA1T313723) hat, die die Zahl für den einen T4 von 1961 ist.

(Hier sind der deutsch T4 vin nein- 150 T/4 (der VGLA1T von Augsburg) 1959 - 1961 300001 bis 314387 Typ 202

1962 - VGLA1T 314388 bis 315388

Und hier sind der gl vin nein-

Vespa 150 Großartig Lusso (GL) 150 Großartig Lusso 1957 - der VGL1T 01001 von 1958 - 016610 - der VGLA1T von

150 Großartigem Lusso 1959 - 1961 1001 bis 035267 - 150 Großartig Lusso 1961 - 1962 VGLB1T der VLA1T von

035268 bis 049294 150 Großartigem Lusso 1962 - 1965 01001 bis 080855)

Bin ich verwirrt!! ist dieser vespa italienisch gl oder deutsch T4 oder beide?

[Rude Man]

Vespa 150 Großartig Lusso (GL)

:-D

Sorry! Already tried scooterhelp.com?

If I understand right, your scooter should be a german T4. The Number on the plate tells this

and GLs with rounded headlamp has never been build, anywhere. As far as I know.

Bearbeitet 8. Juni 2007 von Rude Man

[gattinator]

Hello,

You have a german T4. It is a model which was only build in germany (Augsburg) and no where else.

It´s normal for german Augsburg models, that there are different Numbers. In german documents you just have the number which is placed on 2 Aluminium plates. The bigger one of these plates in placed near the brakepedal. The shorter/smaller one is at the end of the floorboard, near the kickstarter and big motor skrew.

The frame nr is not listed in the german scooter document.

For the german models you can´t use scooterhelp.com , because it will tell you, that you´ll have a GL.

Is it complete? Do you have any documents?

The german models have some special parts.

For the T4 for example , you have a Hella Horn, Hella rear light, Scharlach headlamp, VDO Speedo, Denfeld Seat.

Maybe you can upload a picture.

Where do you come from?

Gatti

[trevb111]

Hello,

You have a german T4. It is a model which was only build in germany (Augsburg) and no where else.

It´s normal for german Augsburg models, that there are different Numbers. In german documents you just have the number which is placed on 2 Aluminium plates. The bigger one of these plates in placed near the brakepedal. The shorter/smaller one is at the end of the floorboard, near the kickstarter and big motor skrew.

The frame nr is not listed in the german scooter document.

For the german models you can´t use scooterhelp.com , because it will tell you, that you´ll have a GL.

Is it complete? Do you have any documents?

The german models have some special parts.

For the T4 for example , you have a Hella Horn, Hella rear light, Scharlach headlamp, VDO Speedo, Denfeld Seat.

Maybe you can upload a picture.

Where do you come from?

Gatti

thankyou guys! really helpful of you. ok i think i understand!!

......so what is the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) on the body chassis for? (VGLA1T032201) It matches a GL VIN number and apparantly (on this site http://www.scooterlounge.com/Vespa/GL/GL.asp - ) they did make GL's like this before 1963 brought in the squarer make??? so does the chassis VIn number mean the chassis was made in Italy and the rest was done in germany?

here is a picture before it was restored... its not very clear! the vespa was restored before i got it but i will have a look at the special parts to see.

thjnx for you help.. i really appreciate it.

[gattinator]

Yes, that´s a german T4.

The backlight is correct.

The lacquer looks also correct....there were 2 original colours available....a gray metallic and a beige (like your ones)

The link of you shows the normal Vespa GL.

The frame is different to the T4.

You can compare the T4 frame with an VNA frame. The cowls are also more like VNA/VNB.

The frame number itself wasn´t used in germany until ~1970....than after it...they used the frame numbers.

Are you from uk?

[trevb111]

oh.. i come from england, portsmouth!! heres another pic.. may help?

[trevb111]

thanks very much youve been fantastic.

in the second paragraph of the website it nsays that they did do a standard vespa 150 with larger 10" wheels

and call this an early Gl, so i thought it might be this? so thanks for clarifying for me

answer me one question though! you said- "The frame number itself wasn´t used in germany until ~1970....than after it...they used the frame numbers." The 'GL' VIN number on the chassis of the scooter (under the left cowl) wheres that from and why is it there? was the frame made in italy and sent to germany for them to make the scooter?

thnx again

trev

Bearbeitet 8. Juni 2007 von trevb111

[Tec]

thanks very much youve been fantastic.

in the second paragraph of the website it nsays that they did do a standard vespa 150 with larger 10" wheels

and call this an early Gl, so i thought it might be this? so thanks for clarifying for me

answer me one question though! you said- "The frame number itself wasn´t used in germany until ~1970....than after it...they used the frame numbers." The 'GL' VIN number on the chassis of the scooter (under the left cowl) wheres that from and why is it there? was the frame made in italy and sent to germany for them to make the scooter?

thnx again

trev

Hi Trev,

the so called early-GL has a different speedo (shaped like the one on the GS 160). I once had such a bike imported from Sweden. Your speedo and rear light indicates the German origin of the scooter, so i would call it a T4 "150 Touren".

Guess the other anoraks agree?

Regards

Tec

P.S.: BTW nice scooter with the possibility to use modern P-range engines.

[trevb111]

Hi Trev,

the so called early-GL has a different speedo (shaped like the one on the GS 160). I once had such a bike imported from Sweden. Your speedo and rear light indicates the German origin of the scooter, so i would call it a T4 "150 Touren".

Guess the other anoraks agree?

Regards

Tec

P.S.: BTW nice scooter with the possibility to use modern P-range engines.

yes thanks to all who helped me here!!

tec- yes it now has a px 150 engine in it... and i love it!!! especially the 10" wheels with lovely rounded body shape!! you dont normally get 102 wheels with a VNB/VBB style scooter so Im very pleased!

trev

[trevb111]

but......i still dont understand why there is a VIN number on the chassis- that correlates with a GL no????????

[Tec]

but......i still dont understand why there is a VIN number on the chassis- that correlates with a GL no????????

You can`t understand it as it`s not logical. For instance the Super Sprint 50 i regrettably sold had the italian frame number V5SS1T2495 but had a german alloy plate saying "V5SS1t650650". The latter was the number typed in the registration papers.

You can`t imagine the problems to explain this to the german TÜV (MOT).

Don`t take it too serious, enjoy your scooter whether it is a GL or a T4. It´s the scoot that counts not a silly number.

Cheers

Tec

[trevb111]

:)

sure absolutely! thanks alot! im just the sort of person who enjoystrying to understand where it came from and a little bit of the history! to understand it... out of fascination i guess

[noggin]

:)

sure absolutely! thanks alot! im just the sort of person who enjoystrying to understand where it came from and a little bit of the history! to understand it... out of fascination i guess

There is a 150 GL with rounded cowls and headlamp because I have one. They were, I believe, made in Sweden from around 1958 til early 60's. VIN is also VGLA1T. 3 gears and 10" wheels. Mine is from 1959, first registered in Norway.

[dieanderen]

It is a German T4!

here some pictures in another Topic:

Augsburger T4

some Informations (in German):

Vespa Archiv

Richard

[chris69]

The Frames were produced in Italy and got their VIN there. Then some of the frames were send to Germany where they were completed. Vespa Augsburg just ignored those Italian VIN's and gave every Vespa their own "VIN" on the beforementioned plates.